Comments on: The State of Transformation in the PCUSA http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/ Growing healthy, missional churches in the PC(USA) Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:33:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Pat Curtis http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-52 Pat Curtis Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:54:22 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-52 Has anyone read "Unbinding the Gospel" by Martha Grace Reese? She has a process through prayer in small groups with a 40 day prayer journal that has transformed my life. My session no volunteers but I do have permission to start a small group and I am. One group leads to another and then the whole church. It has changed me and my prayer partner and I hope we are the musstard seeds for change in our church and our Presbytery. It puts you in closer contact with the Holy Spirit, with Jesus and with God. It is too soon to tell, but I will post more as time goes by. It has worked with other Mainline Churches and I hope will work in mine or else my church will die. Has anyone read “Unbinding the Gospel” by Martha Grace Reese? She has a process through prayer in small groups with a 40 day prayer journal that has transformed my life. My session no volunteers but I do have permission to start a small group and I am. One group leads to another and then the whole church. It has changed me and my prayer partner and I hope we are the musstard seeds for change in our church and our Presbytery. It puts you in closer contact with the Holy Spirit, with Jesus and with God. It is too soon to tell, but I will post more as time goes by. It has worked with other Mainline Churches and I hope will work in mine or else my church will die.

]]> By: Christian Boyd http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-55 Christian Boyd Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:41:28 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-55 Amen! Amen! Amen! Our biggest hurdle will be the transformation of culture, not only with existing congregations who are anxiety ridden and in an isolationist survival mode, but also the governing bodies who will need to provide an environment for the culture shift (and also can be anxiety ridden and in an isolationist survival mode). Using organic organizational theory, the transformation of the congregations and the governing bodies must occur in tandem... yes, it will be messy; but when has discipleship and leadership ever been easy? The foundation of the Church needs to be recapitulated, attention to the Holy Spirit (which only came into our Westminster Standards in the 1900's), formation of community versus connectionalism, organic nodes of synergy nurtured so there will be better diffusion of innovation across the organization, and lastly, as St Paul says, all of us keeping our eyes on the prize at the end of this race, which means this communal organization needs a clearly stated purpose, core values and practices, mission, and strategic structures (Yes, I know we have the Constitution, but every baptized member needs to be able to articulate the above in their own words... which can be difficult when many Ministers cannot). Last but not the least, communication is key, starting with clear expectations for members and what members can expect from this communal organization... which is the root of our doctrine on covenant relationship. Amen! Amen! Amen!

Our biggest hurdle will be the transformation of culture, not only with existing congregations who are anxiety ridden and in an isolationist survival mode, but also the governing bodies who will need to provide an environment for the culture shift (and also can be anxiety ridden and in an isolationist survival mode). Using organic organizational theory, the transformation of the congregations and the governing bodies must occur in tandem… yes, it will be messy; but when has discipleship and leadership ever been easy?

The foundation of the Church needs to be recapitulated, attention to the Holy Spirit (which only came into our Westminster Standards in the 1900′s), formation of community versus connectionalism, organic nodes of synergy nurtured so there will be better diffusion of innovation across the organization, and lastly, as St Paul says, all of us keeping our eyes on the prize at the end of this race, which means this communal organization needs a clearly stated purpose, core values and practices, mission, and strategic structures (Yes, I know we have the Constitution, but every baptized member needs to be able to articulate the above in their own words… which can be difficult when many Ministers cannot). Last but not the least, communication is key, starting with clear expectations for members and what members can expect from this communal organization… which is the root of our doctrine on covenant relationship.

]]> By: Kerry http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-59 Kerry Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:12:08 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-59 Friends the PCUSA has lost the power of the good news We have nothing distinctive to say to the world except some liberal opinions on politics & social issues What message do we have for the world when we have lost the truth of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ? Too many of us simply do not believe it The people who have the most influence in our denominational affairs speak of a different Jesus than the resurrected living Christ Thus our efforts lack the power of the Holy Spirit & the Living God We in the PCUSA offer nothing to a starving & weary world except man centered platitudes The PCUSA will continue its decline because we have lost our message Take heart other parts of the body of Christ are thriving & transforming lives because they proclaim to the world "He is Risen" actually-bodily----not metaphorically-not symbolically-not philosphically-not just in spirit Scripture tells us "...if Christ was not raised our gospel is null & void...if Christ was not raised your,your faith has nothing in it..." 1 Cor 15 12-23 Until & unless the PCUSA recovers this basic truth it has nothing to say nothing to offer the world & will disappear as others who hold fast to the Good News step up do the work of the Kingdom Friends the PCUSA has lost the power of the good news

We have nothing distinctive to say to the world except some liberal opinions on politics & social issues

What message do we have for the world when we have lost the truth of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Too many of us simply do not believe it

The people who have the most influence in our denominational affairs speak of a different Jesus than the resurrected living Christ

Thus our efforts lack the power of the Holy Spirit & the Living God

We in the PCUSA offer nothing to a starving & weary world except man centered platitudes

The PCUSA will continue its decline because we have lost our message

Take heart other parts of the body of Christ are thriving & transforming lives because they proclaim to the world “He is Risen” actually-bodily—-not metaphorically-not symbolically-not philosphically-not just in spirit

Scripture tells us “…if Christ was not raised our gospel is null & void…if Christ was not raised your,your faith has nothing in it…” 1 Cor 15 12-23

Until & unless the PCUSA recovers this basic truth it has nothing to say nothing to offer the world & will disappear as others who hold fast to the Good News step up do the work of the Kingdom

]]> By: L. Lee http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-53 L. Lee Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:25:39 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-53 When you talk about transformation why don't you talk about the Holy Spirit. I am teaching the book of Acts at our church and that is the one ingredient that CHANGED the disciples and can change our church. Yet, I don't hear anyone talk about how to unleash the power of the Holy Spirit. The church has always been "missional", but now they have lost their power to affect change - transformation - and to bring people in. The basic Gospel message doesn't need to change, we just need to be "plugged" in to the power source to be fruitful. When you talk about transformation why don’t you talk about the Holy Spirit. I am teaching the book of Acts at our
church and that is the one ingredient that CHANGED
the disciples and can change our church. Yet, I don’t
hear anyone talk about how to unleash the power of the
Holy Spirit.
The church has always been “missional”, but now they have
lost their power to affect change – transformation – and to
bring people in. The basic Gospel message doesn’t need to
change, we just need to be “plugged” in to the power source
to be fruitful.

]]> By: Philip Lotspeich http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-58 Philip Lotspeich Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:03:27 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-58 Stephen, You make a good point. I heard Alan Hirsch last year speaking on a topic similar to the one you are raising. One of his points was to emphasize that what we do in the world (missiolgy) and the means by which we accomplish that (ecclesiology) must flow from our Christology. And the missiology and ecclesiology must always be calibrated to our Christology since over time we may found ourselves out of step with it. How would you suggest we go about this conversation? Philip Stephen,

You make a good point. I heard Alan Hirsch last year speaking on a topic similar to the one you are raising. One of his points was to emphasize that what we do in the world (missiolgy) and the means by which we accomplish that (ecclesiology) must flow from our Christology. And the missiology and ecclesiology must always be calibrated to our Christology since over time we may found ourselves out of step with it. How would you suggest we go about this conversation?

Philip

]]> By: Stephen Hamilton Wright http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-54 Stephen Hamilton Wright Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:01:38 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-54 I want to venture something big here. As I have watched the phenomena of transformation and emergence, I see missional emphasis in both, and ecclesiological searching in both, and that's good. What I do not detect very clearly in either is theological rethinking, and I believe that in the Presbyterian Church we have to start with the doctrine of atonement. This is the critical doctrine, because it determines our understanding of WHY we are sent into the world. I'm convinced that the general belief that subtitutionary sacrificial atonement is the only way to understand the cross saddles us with a presumed theology that more and more people just don't believe or won't accept. So whatever else we do about transformation, it has to start not just with theology, as all ecclesiology should, but it has to start with transformed theology. I want to venture something big here. As I have watched the phenomena of transformation and emergence, I see missional emphasis in both, and ecclesiological searching in both, and that’s good. What I do not detect very clearly in either is theological rethinking, and I believe that in the Presbyterian Church we have to start with the doctrine of atonement. This is the critical doctrine, because it determines our understanding of WHY we are sent into the world. I’m convinced that the general belief that subtitutionary sacrificial atonement is the only way to understand the cross saddles us with a presumed theology that more and more people just don’t believe or won’t accept. So whatever else we do about transformation, it has to start not just with theology, as all ecclesiology should, but it has to start with transformed theology.

]]> By: Philip Lotspeich http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-51 Philip Lotspeich Fri, 10 Apr 2009 02:39:45 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-51 Bruce, Thanks for the comment! I couldn't agree more. I would love for this conversation to continue. Philip Bruce,

Thanks for the comment! I couldn’t agree more. I would love for this conversation to continue.

Philip

]]> By: Bruce Tischler http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-57 Bruce Tischler Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:23:15 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-57 Philip, Thank you for articulating so clearly the need for transformation of existing congregations and the basic stance of your unit on this matter. It is certainly consistent with what I have been attempting to do over the years of my involvement in the work of congregational transformation, both when I was one of the congregational transformation "field staff" for GA and also in my presbytery staff work in Maumee Valley, and now Hudson River and Palisades Presbyteries. The resistance to change in many congregations often overwhelms efforts to bring about transformation. Determined work on developing a stronger spiritual base for engagement in the life of Christian faith is clearly needed, but commonly resisted, at least in the worldview of the Northeast US, on the basis of "religion being a private affair" and therefore not open to much public expression. I have found that often the spiritual growth begins to happen as folks in a congregation get engaged in the community around them (from which they too often had been walled off for too long, as that community has been undergoing dramatic change in so many ways), particularly as they engage those who are "different" from the norm in the congregation. I could go on and on here, but I won't. Thanks for opening up this conversation. Philip,
Thank you for articulating so clearly the need for transformation of existing congregations and the basic stance of your unit on this matter. It is certainly consistent with what I have been attempting to do over the years of my involvement in the work of congregational transformation, both when I was one of the congregational transformation “field staff” for GA and also in my presbytery staff work in Maumee Valley, and now Hudson River and Palisades Presbyteries.

The resistance to change in many congregations often overwhelms efforts to bring about transformation. Determined work on developing a stronger spiritual base for engagement in the life of Christian faith is clearly needed, but commonly resisted, at least in the worldview of the Northeast US, on the basis of “religion being a private affair” and therefore not open to much public expression. I have found that often the spiritual growth begins to happen as folks in a congregation get engaged in the community around them (from which they too often had been walled off for too long, as that community has been undergoing dramatic change in so many ways), particularly as they engage those who are “different” from the norm in the congregation.

I could go on and on here, but I won’t. Thanks for opening up this conversation.

]]> By: Rebecca Fox Nuelle http://www.presbygrow.net/2009/04/09/the-state-of-transformation-in-the-pcusa/comment-page-1/#comment-56 Rebecca Fox Nuelle Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:38:48 +0000 http://www.presbygrow.net/?p=1147#comment-56 amen, brother... amen, brother…

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